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WHDH
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WHDH
168 posts
Shepherd

How do you view Europe? As a place of new better world (subjectively) of modern and tolerant values? Divided and week continent? Possibly a new world power if it gets over it's inner issues and more united? Do you see it a valuable west ally or is it too divided to be of any good?

*What is her place in todays world (Example: If Russia invaded Ukraine without USA would Europe do anything? )? As product of todays Europe will Europe for next, lets say 50 year, be a world power. Place of new culture and ideologies? Will a new nation from Europe become the new world power, will new power be Europe as a collective or none of these?

  • 23 Replies
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,920 posts
Grand Duke

Too wide a scope of question. Europe of today, or of its history? Europe today is vastly changing at a rapid rate, given that it's increasingly cosmopolitan and multi-ethnic. The spread of Europeans, their way of life and ideals through their colonies?

Will it be a world power if the EU unites in a kindred spirit? Yes definitely. Is it a valuable ally? Too many individual countries to account for a fixed ally. Though if you view it simply as part of NATO, yes.

Think the discussion will flow better if there are fixed perimeters to this.

Gremlion
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Gremlion
522 posts
Blacksmith

Viewing Europe through glass of your little fish tank:
"World of modern and tolerant values" resulted in people incapable of doing police job because they fear to be called "intolerant".
That's only 1400 kids raped, safe and better world. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089
http://www.thelocal.fr/20140102/new-year-sees-1000-cars-burned-across-france
1000 cars burned overnight. Safest place on Earth, definitely.
In my country the biggest amount of burned at once cars I heard of were 7 and 15.
Divided? No. European politic is a muppet show, hands belong to US. Muppets can bash each other, blame each other or whoever else director would tell to actor, but overall course of actions profits US.
Weak? Definitely.
Trend? Further weaken.
World power? With what resources?
Intellectual? Internet + cheap smartphones = good education, accessible to everyone willing to learn. so it's not an advantage any more. Statistically, there are more chances that next genius would be born in China or India.
Natural? Ha-ha, good one.
Plants for mass production? China is cheaper.
Naval yards? Greece's bankrupt, Lithuanian bankrupt, Bulgarian bankrupt, French ones after "making Mistrals for Russia" aren't very trustworthy either...Huge demand, definitely.
Europe is neither seen as valuable (yes, good laundromat for $, EU debt almost equal to US debt; fining German banks and Volkswagen) nor as ally for "west" (again, fining German banks and Volkswagen)

"If Russia invaded Ukraine without USA would Europe do anything?"
Second part first(would Europe do anything):
When Turkey invaded Greece and annexed part of it, did anyone did anything? Europe (Greece is part of Europe, even part of Eurounion) can't help itself.

First part(If Russia invaded Ukraine)
From pure force point of view:
"Coalition of 60 countries bombed ISIS for two years, and it resulted in growth of its territory".
"2 dozens of Russian jets bombed ISIS for 3 months and it resulted in heavy territorial losses and mass deserting of ISIS cannon fodder in woman dresses.

Actual "invasion" of Ukraine would've ended overnight - There is 180 km distance from Belarus, member of CSTO.
Russia could've staged an attack of Belarus by Ukrainian forces (see Winter war for reference) and capture Kiev in 3 hours. Then wide TV/Radio translation - who moves, gets shot by cruise missiles. And that's all.

This is completely discarding "why invade Ukraine at all"...
Conflict has two issues:
1.Crimea.
I was there not so long ago
http://imgur.com/tKt2m52
and move there tomorrow for permanent living.
http://i.imgur.com/LURCLkz.jpg
so I have first-hand experience with emotions of local population.
They are glad for being part of Russia again. Many locals have Russian anthem as their ringtone (to the point of being unsettle, actually)
Heck, you can read on Sevastopol wiki page that they rioted three times to join Russia since 1990th. (If it wasn't censored out, but still should be searchable in edits)
2. "Russian invasion" in Donbass.
Some background:
When USSR felt, there were basically no government, many plants went, in gaming terms, "neutral", "belongs to government, belongs to nobody" and this situation was abused by people for personal gain.
Bands of bandits captured plants, and, basically, most of USSR was divided between oligarchs.
In Russia it was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semibankirschina and it almost destroyed country.
It was ended by FSB, Yeltsin(Oligarch's puppet) was kicked out, and since then we see steady economical growth.
In Ukraine, though, there was no such force and it continues.
Conflict boils down to Rothschild backing Oligarch Poroshenko
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/poroshenko-to-transfer-his-share-in-roshen-to-rothschild-under-trust-agreement-390343.html
in capturing of most profitable Ukrainian property - coal mines, and related steel industry. Owners of said mines in Donbass and Luhansk - ukrainian oligarchs Akhmetov and Firtash. They started revolution(two oligarchs - two republics), because they don't want to lose billion dollar business. With the size of corruption in Ukrainian army they got plenty of weapon, rise of poverty on Ukraine supplies them with mercenaries...
This is also why there are no satellite footage of "thousands of russians crossing Ukrainian territory" - it's not Russian war.

I know, EU media all gloat over "Hurr-durr,Ieeevil russians, don't want to let ukraine live good in EU, bad russians, bad russians".

But, realistically, just thinking about Ukraine in EU causes hysterical laugh.
Their statistic in 2013:
GDP Ukraine< GDP of greece
Population of Ukraine> Population of 10 Greece
Their GDP growth over last 20 years=0%.
Slight GDP/capita change was caused by decrease of population by 20%.
During USSR they were 30% of population with 15% of GDP, second wealthiest republic. Right now this "country" economically comparable to Zimbabwe
EU couldn't make Greece work, just postponed problem for 10-15 years (enough for current Muppets in power to resign); I simply not seeing anybody in Europe capable of making Ukraine work.

WHDH
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WHDH
168 posts
Shepherd

Viewing Europe through glass of your little fish tank

What?

"World of modern and tolerant values" resulted in people incapable of doing police job because they fear to be called "intolerant".

This makes no sense. That isn't near the point what I was trying to say. If you are tolerant that doesn't make you a pacifist.

That's only 1400 kids raped, safe and better world. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

And you are judging Europe by results of Rotherdam, England?

http://www.thelocal.fr/20140102/new-year-sees-1000-cars-burned-across-france
1000 cars burned overnight. Safest place on Earth, definitely.
In my country the biggest amount of burned at once cars I heard of were 7 and 15.

I don't see the importance in this.


Divided? No. European politic is a muppet show, hands belong to US. Muppets can bash each other, blame each other or whoever else director would tell to actor, but overall course of actions profits US.

Well that is a little bit of an overstatement.

World power? With what resources?
Intellectual? Internet + cheap smartphones = good education, accessible to everyone willing to learn. so it's not an advantage any more. Statistically, there are more chances that next genius would be born in China or India.
Natural? Ha-ha, good one.
Plants for mass production? China is cheaper.
Naval yards? Greece's bankrupt, Lithuanian bankrupt, Bulgarian bankrupt, French ones after "making Mistrals for Russia" aren't very trustworthy either...Huge demand, definitely.
Europe is neither seen as valuable (yes, good laundromat for $, EU debt almost equal to US debt; fining German banks and Volkswagen) nor as ally for "west" (again, fining German banks and Volkswagen)

Europe has focus on quality (education, industry, science...) more than on quantity.

When Turkey invaded Greece and annexed part of it, did anyone did anything? Europe (Greece is part of Europe, even part of Eurounion) can't help itself.

When did this happened?

First part(If Russia invaded Ukraine)
From pure force point of view:
"Coalition of 60 countries bombed ISIS for two years, and it resulted in growth of its territory".
"2 dozens of Russian jets bombed ISIS for 3 months and it resulted in heavy territorial losses and mass deserting of ISIS cannon fodder in woman dresses.

But it isn't a territorial invasion is it, and this is totally geo-politically different

This is completely discarding "why invade Ukraine at all"...

Not the point of this thread

Gremlion
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Gremlion
522 posts
Blacksmith

What?

Can fish understand that it lives in an aquarium without ever seeing it from outside?
Another example, widely used in Greek-based education:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave
I'm saying that your cave is Europe, your chains are your news sources.
Without leaving this cave, you can't fully understand reality.


And you are judging Europe by results of Rotherdam, England?

Right now we see rape-related scandal in Cologne...
Plus, people from Norwegia, Finland say that it's rising problem in their countries too.

I judge EU by many things, and I'm disillusioned in Europe being an Edem for culture, equality, tolerant values, etc.

I don't see the importance in this.

Millions of Euro in damage overnight, not important at all. Europeans are obedient, each-other respecting people.


Well that is a little bit of an overstatement.

I like how "mutually implemented" sanctions against Russia resulted in growth of trade balance between US and Russa, with drop in EU&Russia. They said to EU stop trade, and said to Russia - trade with me, not with mah bithc.
"Deal with Mistrals" - Holland "all by himself" decided to break contract, huge gains in reputation and income, right? These two barges definitely were of critical importance for Russia. In the result, France, one of top 5 military exporter got a stigma of "untruthtful contractor". Who is #1, find yourself.
McCain bragging how he buried "South stream"... Yes, Europe should get gas through Ukraine, ruled by Biden's wife and son.
England purchasing 130 F-35...
Europe has focus on quality (education, industry, science...) more than on quantity.

In result Europe gets uneducated masses, incapable of filling high quality industry and science jobs.
Like, how is the European space station called? Oh, right EU has none.
Maybe Europe launched next-gen nuclear reactor? Um, not even close, it was launched in Russia.
EU is being seen as agricultural and medicine center, and that's that.
When did this happened?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus
NATO country attacks NATO country, amazing alliance.
Not the point of this thread

Why would you post it then? Frankly, when I visited Croatia last time, I met diametrally different greetings. (Split and islands near it). People gladly tried to speak Russian with me, and were somewhat ashamed for betraying us.
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

"World of modern and tolerant values" resulted in people incapable of doing police job because they fear to be called "intolerant".
When? Where? What does this have to do with the topic?

That's only 1400 kids raped, safe and better world. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089
http://www.thelocal.fr/20140102/new-year-sees-1000-cars-burned-across-france
1000 cars burned overnight. Safest place on Earth, definitely.
What does this have to do with the topic?

In my country the biggest amount of burned at once cars I heard of were 7 and 15.
Who says whataboutism died with the Soviet Union?

Divided? No. European politic is a muppet show, hands belong to US. Muppets can bash each other, blame each other or whoever else director would tell to actor, but overall course of actions profits US.
No, no, you can't just cry conspiracy and leave it at that; that won't fool anybody. You have to take actual facts and build a story around them, then show it to a bunch of paranoiacs who will back it up.

Intellectual? Internet + cheap smartphones = good education, [...]
Of course. How else would we know about the ever-present threat of dihydrogen monoxide, the religion whose only tenant is acceptance of one scientific theory, or the alien remains discovered in Roswell?

Natural? Ha-ha, good one.
Plants for mass production? China is cheaper.
Naval yards? Greece's bankrupt, Lithuanian bankrupt, Bulgarian bankrupt, French ones after "making Mistrals for Russia" aren't very trustworthy either...Huge demand, definitely.
Stop coming up with vague, meaningless questions just so you can pair them with vague, meaningless answers.

When Turkey invaded Greece and annexed part of it, did anyone did anything?
If you're referring to the invasion of Cyprus (1974), it was a direct retaliation to a Greek takeover.

[...] (Greece is part of Europe, even part of Eurounion) [...]
As of 1981, yes.

"Coalition of 60 countries bombed ISIS for two years, and it resulted in growth of its territory".
No, it didn't.

"2 dozens of Russian jets bombed ISIS for 3 months and it resulted in heavy territorial losses and mass deserting of ISIS cannon fodder in woman dresses.
No, it didn't.

Russia could've staged an attack of Belarus by Ukrainian forces (see Winter war for reference) and capture Kiev in 3 hours. Then wide TV/Radio translation - who moves, gets shot by cruise missiles. And that's all.
And all known viruses could be eradicated, and world hunger could be ended, and the effects of global warming could be reversed, and everyone in the world could settle their differences and have a big dance party with free beer and popsicles. So why hasn't any of this actually happened?

This is completely discarding "why invade Ukraine at all"...
Not when it hasn't the merest whisp of relevancy to anything related to the topic, no.

[insipid gratuitous pro-Russia spiel disregarded on the grounds of having no relevance whatsoever]

Can fish understand that it lives in an aquarium without ever seeing it from outside?
Well, yeah. It's fairly obvious, unless you're referring to blind cave fish or benthopelagic species, and even those will recognize that they're in an enclosed space.

I'm saying that your cave is Europe, your chains are your news sources.
Without leaving this cave, you can't fully understand reality.
Ergo decedo is never a sound move, but it takes on a new level of ineptitude when your "cave" is the very topic of the discussion.

Right now we see rape-related scandal in Cologne...
So?

Plus, people from Norwegia, Finland say that it's rising problem in their countries too.
I challenge you to name any person from Norwegia who makes any such claim, or even anything like it.

I judge EU by many things, and I'm disillusioned in Europe being an Edem for culture, equality, tolerant values, etc.
Edem? What?

I like how "mutually implemented" sanctions against Russia resulted in growth of trade balance between US and Russa, with drop in EU&Russia. They said to EU stop trade, and said to Russia - trade with me, not with mah bithc.
Whether you like it or not has no effect upon it's irrelevance. Stop trying to make everything about Russia.

In result Europe gets uneducated masses, incapable of filling high quality industry and science jobs.
Because everyone knows that promoting quality = lowering it.

Like, how is the European space station called? Oh, right EU has none.
So?

Maybe Europe launched next-gen nuclear reactor? Um, not even close, it was launched in Russia.
(see above)

Why would you post it then?
Why can't you identify the location where it was mentioned?

Frankly, when I visited Croatia last time, I met diametrally different greetings. (Split and islands near it). People gladly tried to speak Russian with me, and were somewhat ashamed for betraying us.
So?
Gremlion
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Gremlion
522 posts
Blacksmith

What does this have to do with the topic?

Direct question from topic starter. "How do you view Europe". I view it as region where police less and less capable of doing its job when things come to minorities.
What does this have to do with the topic?

Same as above, place of incapable police.
No, no, you can't just cry conspiracy and leave it at that;

Well, I posted some facts about US profits at the expense of EU. Post some about EU profits at the expense of US.
Of course. How else would we know about the ever-present threat
Why would you drop the most important part of to everyone willing to learn
As of 1981, yes.
Before that Greece was asian or american region?
No, it didn't.

And you can back your words?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27838034
Compare how much ISIS lost by the end of 2015 compared to start of 2015.
So why hasn't any of this actually happened?

Isn't relevant to the topic, but the answer is quite simple - Russia doesn't need all of Ukraine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Ukraine
Look at the "voting pattern" - Eastern part has pro-russian stance, it would be welcomed to rejoin. Western (which includes Kiev) can go **** itself.
I challenge you to name any person from Norwegia who makes any such claim, or even anything like it.

Challenge accepted:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?_r=0
As a cherry on top, finnish ones:
http://www.dailystormer.com/finland-ongoing-immigrant-rape-fiasco/
Edem? What?

Typo. Are you so uneducated that you can't figure one letter within full meaning laid out to you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_of_Eden
Whether you like it or not has no effect upon it's irrelevance. Stop trying to make everything about Russia.

Whether you like it or not has no effect upon its relevance. This thing is absolutely fits in canvas of "how you see Europe" and role of Europe in international politics.
Why can't you identify the location where it was mentioned?

OP's post If Russia invaded Ukraine without USA would Europe do anything?
ISIS commited terroristic attacks in France. did Europe did anything? France did some airstrikes in November, and that's all.
WHDH
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WHDH
168 posts
Shepherd

I'm saying that your cave is Europe, your chains are your news sources.
Without leaving this cave, you can't fully understand reality.

Where do i state such biased opinion that Europe is a great, wealthy superpower. If we are going to talk about fish tanks I can only see a Russian one.

Right now we see rape-related scandal in Cologne...
Plus, people from Norwegia, Finland say that it's rising problem in their countries too.

It is a global problem... How many more rapes that aren't registered are there in the third world countries? How many in USA or Canada? Asia?

I judge EU by many things, and I'm disillusioned in Europe being an Edem for culture, equality, tolerant values, etc.

Most of Europe is pretty tolerant and is very different in culture. And it can live with that. It already does. Globalized.

Millions of Euro in damage overnight, not important at all. Europeans are obedient, each-other respecting people.

Not important. It shows that there could be a mad man in France nothing more. It has nothing to do with general European. Do you know what does obedient means?

USA has a influence over EU but to compare it to a muppet show is just ignorant.

In result Europe gets uneducated masses, incapable of filling high quality industry and science jobs.
Like, how is the European space station called? Oh, right EU has none.
Maybe Europe launched next-gen nuclear reactor? Um, not even close, it was launched in Russia.

>Uneducated masses? That is just plain stupid of you to say. (Student performance)
>There is ISS
>Russia is not the center of this topic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus
NATO country attacks NATO country, amazing alliance.

FishPreffered already answered to this :
(

When Turkey invaded Greece and annexed part of it, did anyone did anything?
If you're referring to the invasion of Cyprus (1974), it was a direct retaliation to a Greek takeover.
[...] (Greece is part of Europe, even part of Eurounion) [...]
As of 1981, yes
)

Why would you post it then? Frankly, when I visited Croatia last time, I met diametrally different greetings. (Split and islands near it). People gladly tried to speak Russian with me, and were somewhat ashamed for betraying us.

It was an example. Just to see the geo-political situation of Europe.

And what you said for Croatia...

First. Croatia was split many times during the history so different parts have different accents but we all feel like Croats.

Second. Why did you even bring Croatia in this? Because I am a Croat. Look stop being biased towards Russia just because you are Russian and stop trying to justify Russian acts by saying things like this. You can't judge objectively because it seams you are to personally in this so don't judge it at all, at least not with that much bias.

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

Direct question from topic starter. "How do you view Europe". I view it as region where police less and less capable of doing its job when things come to minorities.
Okay, but
1 That's an incredibly naïve overgeneralization.
2 It has no relation to a "World of modern and tolerant values" being the cause of anything.

Well, I posted some facts about US profits at the expense of EU. Post some about EU profits at the expense of US.
No, you didn't. You just claimed that it was so. Furthermore, it's an absurd conclusion: "Y benefits X in some way; therefore, X must be controlling Y". Should we also assume that auto repair shops are secretly pulling the strings behind all breakdowns and collisions? That dental hygenists are secretly giving everyone cavities and plaque? Are coroners and undertakers the root cause of all deaths?

Why would you drop the most important part of to everyone willing to learn
Because that part isn't the problem. The problem is that the internet is loaded with garbage, misconception, and blatant lies that uneducated people are all too easily fooled into believing. If no one teaches people the difference between science and pseudoscience, logic and faulty reasoning, fact and opinion, knowledge and belief, skepticism and denial, they aren't going to be very well educated no matter how willing they are.

Before that Greece was asian or american region?
Allow me to congradulate you upon missing the point in the most fantastically ridiculous way possible.

And you can back your words?
Indeed, as you have just demonstrated that both of your conjectures are entirely without merit.

Isn't relevant to the topic, but the answer is quite simple - Russia doesn't need all of Ukraine.
Russia doesn't need any of Ukraine, and you're entirely correct that it isn't relevant to the topic.

Western (which includes Kiev) can go **** itself.
Surely, you are the very epitome of tolerance and impartiality.

Challenge accepted:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?_r=0
Great! Now all you have to do is find someone from Norwegia who also agrees.

Typo. Are you so uneducated that you can't figure one letter within full meaning laid out to you?
What an interesting question. While I ponder that, here's one for you: Can you not comprehend why the typo makes no difference whatsoever to the invalidity of your point?

Whether you like it or not has no effect upon its relevance.
Exactly. So ... we're agreed, then? Good! Moving on.

If Russia invaded Ukraine without USA would Europe do anything?
ISIS commited terroristic attacks in France. did Europe did anything? France did some airstrikes in November, and that's all.
So? Are you using Bing translator or something? I ask because that part of the OP doesn't relate to your question (why invade Ukraine at all) in any way beyond mentioning Ukraine, Russia, and something about an invasion.
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

You can't judge objectively because it seams you are to personally in this so don't judge it at all, at least not with that much bias.
Now, that's also ergo decedo. His views shouldn't be rejected simply because of his bias. He just needs to understand that most of what he's saying here is not related to this topic.
Doombreed
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Doombreed
7,024 posts
Templar

I just want to point out that Europe is not a country @Gremlion. You've been comparing it with Russia all this time but you missed the "abstract" element in the question of the OP.

You see, Europe is not subject to any central government whatsoever. It is multinational continent with some of the most advanced countries in the world, at least economically, if not in other fields as well. But you can't point out incidents that took place in some of those countries (like this) and use them to form an image of Europe as a whole. Moreover, you can't compare it with a single nation, like you've being doing.
As you can understand, the conclusion you've been trying to draw is based on a faulty comparison, and that's part of the reason why the points you are trying to make are irrelevant to the topic.

The truth is, that what nicho pointed out is true. The original question is too wide a scope of. A singular view is a bit difficult to be established and maintained.

Gremlion
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Gremlion
522 posts
Blacksmith

@Doombreed You missed my points. I haven't tried to do comparison.
OP made broad question, I did broad answer. (Yes, many of my answers focus on relationships with Russia, but, hey, Europe still depend on trade with us)
You see, Europe IS a subject to central goverment, Europarliament. And one of instruments of its control - central european bank, which gives credits to european countries so they can operate.
Countries in Europe can claim that they are independent... Until these drug addicts would need another credit. Can Greece right now do independent politic? Poland is on its way to Greece with negative trade balance and stable budget deficit, Baltic "countries" are disgustingly pitiful, and so on.
I'm not comparing Europe to "single nation", if you mean Russia. It is a home for 190 nations (I'm person of Ukrainian\Polish\Russian descent myself).
My conclusion is based on huge bulk of information, some of it I have seen myself, some of it say friends of my parents, which leave Europe after living there for 15+ years, most of it from news (And, puuhlease, don't say anything about me watching kremlin propaganda. I'm not searching for analysis in news, just facts). Definitely, I lack knowledge about some meaningless countries like Portugal, but I see enough to estimate that:
-Europe doesn't have equivalent of IT cluster like Silicon valley. Locomotive of these technologies, military tech... is US-based to be compatible with NATO.
-Europe is lacking in space technologies. No own space station (ISS consists of US and Russian segments, sorry), And space is key for survival of humankind, source for rare resources, etc.
-European debt is an overfilled cesspool, worse than US one.
-European education, as was linked by OP (IIRC) is already loses to Asian one.
-Europe doesn't have capacity to surpass China in mass producing.

So, overall, I don't see Europe becoming world superpower(even if all european countries would unite together into one country).
Still, on direct answer "is it nice place to live" I would say - mostly yes. But tendency is that areas where it is nice, do decrease.

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

Doombreed You missed my points. I haven't tried to do comparison.
Yet you did so anyway:
First part(If Russia invaded Ukraine)
From pure force point of view:
"Coalition of 60 countries bombed ISIS for two years, and it resulted in growth of its territory".
"2 dozens of Russian jets bombed ISIS for 3 months and it resulted in heavy territorial losses and mass deserting of ISIS cannon fodder in woman dresses.

Like, how is the European space station called? Oh, right EU has none.
Maybe Europe launched next-gen nuclear reactor? Um, not even close, it was launched in Russia.

----

You see, Europe IS a subject to central goverment, Europarliament.
1 Europe ≠ EU
2 That doesn't make EU comparable to a single nation. Member states can't be forced to enact EP legislation that they don't support.

Can Greece right now do independent politic?
Yes. It's doing exactly that at this very moment.

Poland is on its way to Greece with negative trade balance and stable budget deficit, Baltic "countries" are disgustingly pitiful, and so on.
So?

I'm not comparing Europe to "single nation", if you mean Russia. It is a home for 190 nations [...]
And Canada is home to more than 50 nations. That changes nothing.

-Europe doesn't have equivalent of IT cluster like Silicon valley.
Just what do you think Swizerland is?

And space is key for survival of humankind, source for rare resources, etc.
No, it isn't. That's pure balderdash with a side of baloney. Survival requires sustainability, and the whole point of sustainability is not outstripping the available resources.
Doombreed
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Doombreed
7,024 posts
Templar

-European debt is an overfilled cesspool, worse than US one.
-European education, as was linked by OP (IIRC) is already loses to Asian one.
-Europe doesn't have capacity to surpass China in mass producing.

- The entire world is wacked by debt. I suggest you view The Economist's debt clock for a near real-time update on the global debt, as well as every country's debt individually). Even if we accept that the EU debt is greater than the US one (which is not, according to the Economist, the US has a public debt nearing 16 trillion USD. Comparatively the global debt is 57 trillion USD), it doesn't change the fact that what matters is mostly the debt as % of GDP for individual nations and the public debt per person for each country, not the size of the debt itself.

- So? It is still one of the best in the world (I reckon. Haven't checked with sources. If I am wrong, please correct me). You will always find a section or field in which Europe as a whole (if it's possible to talk about it without overgeneralizing) loses to another country/nation/race/continent/etc, because nothing is perfect.

- So?

Gremlion
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Gremlion
522 posts
Blacksmith

@FishPreferred This is last time I answer to your neckbearded trolling.
You still haven't contributed anything to the topic beside attacking my opinion.

Yet you did so anyway:

This is called giving perspective, "comparison" results in some conclusion.
1 Europe ≠ EU
2 That doesn't make EU comparable to a single nation. Member states can't be forced to enact EP legislation that they don't support.

"If you don't enact this legislation, we would reconsider giving you credit, try to cover 15% budget deficit then".
Yes. It's doing exactly that at this very moment.

By accepting all terms and conditions Troika dictates them. Oh, right, they are "free to do so".
Last country in Europe, which tried to be independent, was bombed by NATO forces into oblivion, butchered into two, their president was let to rot in prison until death without any sentence, and 15 years later remnants of this country is still one of the biggest sources of refugees.
Just what do you think Swizerland is?
Googling "Switzerland IT giant" results in "It's a giant broken chair".
"Swiss IT giant" - swiss army knives.
Wikipedia page which lists Swiss IT companies lists 23 entries.
So, um, I don't consider Switzerland as a country with strong IT.
Gremlion
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Gremlion
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Blacksmith

- So? It is still one of the best in the world (I reckon. Haven't checked with sources. If I am wrong, please correct me).

Thing is, things are collapsing.
If we talk about US debt, Puerto-Rico, US colony, last year went default. Their debt is taken at the same place, where other US states get their money - where different hedge funds invest pensions of US citizens.
So, PR didn't pay money to hedge funds, hedge funds don't have money to pay to their seniors... (not right now, default was small in absolute numbers, but would continue to grow)
In long term, this results in harsher terms other states would borrow money from hedge funds -> slowing economic growth.

Greek debt is of the same quality and of the same future. Yep, for now their convulsions are prolonged, but, because we don't see any big investments into Greece (and why would anyone invest into country, which can't pay its debts), we are safe to assume that they wouldn't generate money faster -> default is inevitable.

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